The SEEK Podcast
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The SEEK Podcast
Come Follow Me In Your Finances: WalletWin x SEEK
Join us on the SEEK Podcast as we delve into the theme “Come Follow Me,” exploring how to merge faith with financial stewardship. In this special episode, produced in collaboration with SEEK and The Catholic Money Show, we feature guest hosts Jonathan and Amanda from WalletWin. Together, we look at the journeys of saints who exemplify using wealth for spiritual growth and service.
Discover the transformative legacy of St. Catherine Drexel, who channeled her immense inheritance into founding schools and supporting marginalized communities, embodying a modern-day St. Francis. We also celebrate the venerable Pierre Toussaint, a former slave who rose to prominence in New York City, using his influence and resources to aid others and foster church missions.
Our discussions extend to St. Matthew, highlighting the balance of money, faith, and virtue, and the contemporary challenges in aligning our financial actions with our spiritual values. This episode not only revisits the profound impact of past SEEK conferences on our faith journeys but also inspires listeners to consider how their financial decisions can reflect their faith and contribute to a richer, more fulfilling life.
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Welcome to the Seek Podcast, where we explore faith, inspire hope and build community. My name is John Michael Lucido and I'm excited to invite you to join us this season as we dive into topics about the faith with people from all over the Catholic world. Thank you for listening to today's episode. Know that we are praying for you.
Speaker 2:Jesus invites us to come follow Him In our whole lives. How do we do it with our money? Let's find out by looking at the lives of the saints in this episode of the Catholic Money Show. Hello and welcome to this special episode produced in collaboration with Seek25 and the Catholic Money Show. We are here to talk about that theme of Come Follow Me, the theme of the conference this year. And well, how do we do that in all of our lives? We're going to be talking about that one part our pockets. But first let's talk a little bit about Seek. I love Seek. I've been going to Seek since before it was called Seek.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was called many a different thing in our times. I think our very first one was way back in 2004, perhaps 2005, somewhere around there, and we've been nary to miss one of these events, and only through very unique circumstances have we ever missed yes, there may have been one.
Speaker 2:I was. I was in the with one of our children, yeah, and then there was there was a year, though, where they did split up and you went to two, so maybe that okay, so it kind of washed out yeah it covers it a little bit bittersweet, though this year yes, so we've just had a lot going on in our lives, including the passing of my father, so his name's Mike, pray for him.
Speaker 2:That'd be great. So that and the transitioning, you know, getting my mom all set up to live on her own now after 40, whatever years of marriage. It's just a whole lot going on. So we're passing on Seek this year but we are so excited about it. We said let's still do the podcast, though. Guys, Keep us on there.
Speaker 3:We can't not talk about this event, because this really is an event that we attribute so much of our own faith lives. You know it's almost 40-somethings now. We really began to take our faith seriously in college when we got involved with Focus, and then, as we went to the conferences, they were key factors in our own ongoing conversion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:And fantastic formation. So, whether you're interested in going head on over to the website, follow their social media handles, watch the videos as they come out online, or or get access to the talks Uh, there's usually just so many gold nuggets that happen at an event like this. The Holy spirit is very active, very present and tangible. Um, and I I can't wait to see what's going to happen. This year. As Jonathan had said, the theme is Come Follow Me, this calling of those earliest disciples to follow Jesus. And now this Come Follow Me has echoed across the centuries as our Lord continues to invite disciples to follow him in the unique facets and areas of their lives, always a little bit different than maybe somebody else, and I can't wait to dive into exploring how does that look with our finances, with our money?
Speaker 3:But then the patron saint of this conference is also St Joan of Arc, who I feel like is having a little bit of a moment. She's having a little bit of a moment. In the last couple of years I've heard some very compelling talks given on her. Her life is gosh. It's bewilderingly inspirational. It really is, if you really look at the details, what Some saints were talking to you. You just went to the king and told him how it was going to be. You led an army, okay. So I am sure a mixture between her intercession and her story, combined with Come Follow Me, the Holy Spirit and all of the different speakers that are going to be at this event, with, of course, our Lord in Eucharistic Adoration, it's got all the components Absolutely. The ultimate mic drop is in the silence of adoration, and so the combined elements there are ripe for conversion and for transformation, and I can't wait to see the fruits of it.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I don't think we've introduced ourselves. If you're new to us, you're maybe finding this in the Seek podcast feed. Well, we are Jonathan and Amanda Texer. We were missionaries with Focus, who puts on Seek, for about nine years or so, involved as students. Before that we were on-campus missionaries and then each of us involved in the very early days of the Focus Digital Campus and Focus Greek and the summer projects all over the place in Focus, and at least I had a number of roles also at past SEEK conferences.
Speaker 2:So it's very happy. We're happy to be back everybody. Thank you for having us. So it's very happy, we're happy to be back. Everybody, thank you for having us. And in that time, since we've left Focus staff, we have started a company called Wallet Win and we are hosts of the weekly podcast, the Catholic Money Show, and we talk all about the things that you know the intersection of our faith and our finances. How do we put these two things together to really use our money as Catholics? So we do that through the podcast. We wrote a book, we have our online course, the Catholic Money Course, our online academy, all sorts of things, kids' classes it's all there so that you can be the good steward that you were made to be.
Speaker 3:And that really that mission, that call came from the time that we were actually on staff and it kind of like a Mother Teresa moment.
Speaker 3:She talked about having a call within a call. You know she was already a religious sister teaching education to school children and received a call to go serve in religious life in a different way to the poorest of the poor on the streets and those who were dying and who were sick, and when we were on staff, we just kept hearing this echo of. You know, there are a lot of voices out there talking about money and unpacking finances from a secular perspective or from a Protestant Christian perspective, but it's not being done from a Catholic perspective and the church has oh so much to share on this topic and the lives of the saints. It's really subtle, but they ooze with wisdom around money and who's going to unpack this? And so that's when we said, yes, lord, we'll follow you. And in 2017 is when we uh started wallet win, and it has been growing ever since, with god leading the way. So it's been an honor and a privilege and I can't wait to unpack a few of those saint stories in this episode. Yeah.
Speaker 2:When I think about come follow me, I think about that painting. I believe it's a Caravaggio, if I'm not mistaken. But you know that one, matthew, is sitting there at the table and of course they're all in whatever time period that was like the Renaissance or something. They're all in those fancy clothes and stuff. Okay, it's kind of all dark. So, yeah, it probably is Caravaggio. Jesus is there and he's pointing at him, he's pointing to him and he's saying, of course, come follow me. He's calling the apostles, and then there's Matthew. He's sitting at the end of the table. He's like oh, me, me, you mean me. So when I hear come follow, that's the image I think of. So I think about Matthew. He's there and this is maybe helpful because he's sitting there at the table with all the money you know collecting the taxes, like he's sitting there doing the accounting from his work as a tax collector yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's there and Jesus is right there, showing up in the midst of it all, calling him out of it, just how he in our lives certainly in mine. He showed up. I wasn't really expecting it and he says, hey, you come here, follow me. And he's called out of what he used to do, now to live a new way. And we'll get back to Matthew in a little bit. But I want to continue down this road of looking at these saints to see how can we follow Jesus, how have some other folks done it before, to inspire us and how we can live our lives.
Speaker 3:And I want to point this out right away at the beginning of the episode. Why is this important? Why would we look at different examples of how the saints interacted with, managed, thought about, interact and handled money? I think it's important because if you are in the United States of America, for example, essentially there's only one right track, and that's just get as rich as possible and do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want, in whatever quantity you want, and that money is worshipped. It is the end, all be all. Essentially, if you really just the end, all be all Essentially, if you really just you don't have to peel back layers that deep to know that that is essentially the American way. Just how can I get rich and do it quick, truly? And I think sometimes, as disciples, this can be a great stumbling block for us, because some of us will be called to great amounts of wealth by our vocation or by being asked to start a business or potentially inheriting it. There could be a variety of circumstances where we end up with a tremendous amount of wealth, but that is not going to be the call for everyone.
Speaker 3:We see in the parable of the good steward, even in scripture, one was given five talents. One was given three and one was given one. Was it Two and one? Five? Two and one? And the five and the two? They doubled it. The one buried it in the ground. He wept and gnashed his teeth. But the other two, they stewarded it prudently and well and they were able to gain a return for their master and they were praised, welcomed into the, to the feast, and they were given a party.
Speaker 3:Essentially, each of us are going to be given a different amount of time, talent and treasure.
Speaker 3:Honestly, it's the Lord knows what is best for our salvation and that is what he is going to give to us.
Speaker 3:And that is what he is going to give to us, and if we reject that, we're rejecting a part of the way he wants to make us holy and to make us sanctified.
Speaker 3:And so we do not all need to be on one path towards get as much money as fast as I possibly can. We need to be more attuned to asking our Lord what do you want In his call towards us of come follow me? Part of that we need to ask him is how do you want the money to look, lord? And we're going to see in the example of the lives of the saints, that that is going to vary and that's okay. For some it's going to mean a lot of money, for some it's going to be just a moderate amount, and for others it could be a call to mean a lot of money, for some it's going to be just a moderate amount, and for others it could be a call to taking a vow of poverty. We just have to be docile and to listen to how he wants that to look in our life and to reject what the world is saying it should look.
Speaker 2:And it's going to be a variety of different ways. So we picked out three saints to look at today, or saints. We threw a venerable in there for a little fun, so let's check it out. The first one I want to talk about. She is a saint near and dear to our hearts here at Wallet Win, Our patroness, St Catherine Drexel.
Speaker 3:Love her American born Fun fact about St Catherine Drexel.
Speaker 2:She was born Catherine Drexel, catherine with an E, and then, when she became religious, she became Catherine with an A.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I don't know why.
Speaker 3:We should dig into the details there.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting, I wonder if it was a little bit of just.
Speaker 3:It's a little more challenging or difficult, or it's a visual swap. Maybe she's real type A and needed that.
Speaker 2:Or inviting that mortification of my name's going to get spelled wrong probably.
Speaker 3:Or maybe it just symbolized in that swap. I'm different.
Speaker 2:I'm a new person.
Speaker 3:yes, we should dig a little deeper into that Fun little fact there about her, I thought, you were going to share a fun fact about how.
Speaker 2:Similar thing though St Francis Xavier Francis with an I Francis Xavier Cabrini Francis with an E. Anyway, this is not the Catholic spelling show. This is the Catholic money show. So let's talk about the money. If you don't, if you aren't well acquainted with old Katie, she is a heck of a woman. She was born into this beyond wealthy banking family in Philadelphia.
Speaker 3:Yes, the Drexels were business partners with JP Morgan.
Speaker 2:Yes, as in JP Morgan Chase, the Drexel company banking company was around until about the 70s. Of course, generations and generations gone on. They got caught up in some bad accounting stuff. They're no longer in business, but even for a very long time the Drexel name was involved in banking and back then of course they were probably one of the few. So they had considerable wealth In today's money they'd be $400 million at least of just their own personal wealth, monetary wealth.
Speaker 3:And as Catherine grew up in this family, uh, her, her mom died when she was very young and then her dad ended up remarried and then, um, they went on to have more children as well.
Speaker 3:So she did have siblings, um, but, Catherine, she grew up with these very virtuous parents who didn't see money as just a way to.
Speaker 3:Of course, they had very lovely and nice things and they they went to Europe, probably for some business deals, but you know they're the nanny that they made sure to hire, always took them to daily mass and to shrines and, um, they used those trips, as you know, that human formation and spiritual formation opportunities.
Speaker 3:Her parents took the faith very seriously. They were paying the, the, the rent or the mortgage for many families in Philadelphia, and I think there was one or two days a week at their home, but even when they would go to their vacation home out in the country that people would come to the back door and she would watch her mother just give out money to whoever for whatever it was the medicine that they needed or the groceries they needed to buy or the rent they needed to pay. And this is what they prioritized was providing for their family, of course, but then they used money as a tool and a vehicle to bless others, and they knew that it was, they were fortunate to receive it and they wanted to pass that gift on to others who were not in the same position.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that continued in Catherine's life as she grew up. Her father died and the inheritance is left to her and her sister. So she had two sisters split up equally three ways, and so millions upon millions, hundreds of millions of dollars that she's now in charge of. And over this time her heart is beginning to break Through her spiritual director. He did a lot of work and other priest friends did a lot of work out west in those days, the missions, the missions out to the American Indians and to African Americans. So she was just the Lord, just kind of grew her heart for in particular those two groups of folks, and so she eventually just kind of heard the call and discern that she was to help these folks and she was trying to figure out how to do it and then again discern to I'm going to become a religious sister, I'm going to start a community. These are the people we are serving. This is our charism the welfare, the education of American Indians and African Americans.
Speaker 3:Now on her way there. Just not. You know we're not going to get this into all the other saints, but we care a little bit more about Catherine Drexel and just know all the ins and outs of her stories based on books we've read. Her spiritual director actually challenged her at first. He was like you know you come from all this wealth. I don't know A vow of poverty. It just might be too extreme.
Speaker 2:I don't think you can cut it.
Speaker 3:It might be too much. Maybe you're just called to have a lot of wealth and to give it away during your lifetime. To grow it and give it away that's absolutely a path. But she was faithful to going to adoration and listening to our Lord. Sometimes our spiritual directors might mean well, but we are the ones that are ultimately going to hear what God is asking. And she just kept hearing. No, I am to become a religious. And I believe she spent time with other communities and ultimately discerned yes, she was supposed to start her own order and that money that she inherited was to be the lifeblood of getting this off the ground and serving these vulnerable populations getting this off the ground and serving these vulnerable populations. And so she went right into building schools and providing the resources that these people needed to grow in their faith and to be educated and to serve in the communities. So this is really what she got started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she started dozens of schools. What she got started? Yeah, she started dozens of schools. She began Xavier University down in New Orleans and did so much work. She was a little bit of a spitfire. I believe the story is somewhere down in the South there was some law that said, hey, black people, you got to sit in the back pew. And so they installed the pews sideways. Uh, so they were all the back pew and everybody could just scooch down to the side, to the front. That's great, I love it. But she gave. So all this, this inheritance of this income of millions and millions of dollars a year, she just, you know, just gave to the order and, uh, during her lifetime, the united states, it started the income tax. So now the amount available, because all this was income from the businesses and everything that was coming in through inheritance. So now there's just so much less money to use. The Congress saw Miraculously enough.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:The United States government, believe it or not, saw the good work that she was doing and passed a law that said if you are giving away 90% of your income or more each year for the last five years or something like that, you're good. We don't need any income tax from you. So she I mean she was giving away 100%. You know she wasn't keeping, you know, a couple million in her back pocket or anything, but everybody knew that this law was probably only ever going to affect Catherine Drexel. So they passed a law. The government said you know what? We would rather not have a couple extra million dollars every year, why don't?
Speaker 3:you do it. Because you're doing such?
Speaker 2:effective work. You're so incredible. The work you're doing is so great. Wouldn't that be something huh?
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 2:Wow, so good. So she's incredible. She started all these schools, did all this good work and, depending where you are in the country, she may have been in your area, especially if you're out east, but then of course she did come west to establish these schools, all of this.
Speaker 3:We have one just in our diocese about an hour and a half north.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I know back in Pennsylvania there's a building I know, at least in Carlisle, that she was using as a school, I think at one point. Anyway, she's incredible and we see in her story this great wealth that the Lord asked her to handle, to steward well and to put entirely to the use of building up the kingdom, of saving souls and performing works of mercy.
Speaker 3:But she herself was called to a vow of poverty. Yes, so I want that distinction to be made known. She's kind of like a St Francis of a. Sisi type they share, that some people will be called to absolutely turn away from and renounce any claim over finances and they'll take the vow of poverty.
Speaker 2:trusting completely in divine providence, I would say slight difference though, which is interesting because francis came from some wealth. Um, he's like nope, nope, I'm just we're gonna beg for it all. Now, saint catherine's order they got the income. It was was like yes, okay, we've got this. This is not for me. I'm taking this, you know, funneling or whatever, to the order. And there we go. Now, interestingly enough, her father didn't want all these dudes coming after his daughters to try to marry them just for the money. So he wrote the inheritance in such a way that they could only continue down to their descendants, and so catherine didn't have descendants. Uh, in the you know the traditional physical legal sense. So when she died, the tap got turned off and the that order. Now, you know, they rely on providence.
Speaker 3:They relate like everybody, you know they rely on Providence, like everybody else now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they rely on Providence. They don't have the big money coming in the mail.
Speaker 3:And that was a discernment that she had.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Was do I legally get this changed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because everybody thinks yeah there's probably a case that she and the sisters could make that this is the work that's going to continue on after me. Blah, blah, blah, but they nope. This is the way you know. My dad set it up and our our father in heaven. He will also provide for us after her death.
Speaker 3:Beautifully. She had two other sisters that did not become religious, but they also handled money very prudently, very wisely, very generously in the kingdom. So really there was just I think it's a, it's a testament mostly to the the way their parents managed money so well, so virtuously. Their children were just students of that and they saw money handled um the way it ought to be, and so they were able to grow up and, even if they weren't taking vows of poverty, able to live in an appropriate relationship with it, which I think speaks volumes. All right, so that's one vocation, right St Catherine Drexel, the wealthy heiress who takes a vow of poverty.
Speaker 2:Which was earth shattering at the time. Newspapers all over the country, but even around the world, covered this wild idea that this multi-millionaire heiress would give it all up to become a nun. Incredible.
Speaker 3:As if she didn't find a bigger treasure. That's what they really could do.
Speaker 2:It's like if Taylor Swift became a nun.
Speaker 3:Right, think of how crazy the world would go. Everybody'd freak out, yeah, but that's you know, minus all the love, drama and the songs. Katherine was pursuing virtue her whole life. But so it's kind of similar in the wheelhouse, but but yes, it would be that radical financially speaking all right, all right, let's talk about somebody.
Speaker 2:Let's move on our next, and this is one we haven't talked too much about, so I did a little more research on we've been discussing him for a while we've known a little bits of his story. I've got a little bit more um again. We won't go into as much detail on everybody, uh, but this next one. So he's not a saint yet.
Speaker 3:In the canonization process.
Speaker 2:Yes, he is beyond servant of God. He's got called up to the next level right in the minors.
Speaker 3:Let's ask this guy for some miracles.
Speaker 2:He's incredible. Yes, venerable Pierre Toussaint, so he's not a French guy, he was American. He's American. He was born a slave in Haiti, hence the French name. And then. So in his life, his masters did teach him to read, or allow him to learn how to read, and then, when the master's son went to New York, he and a couple others went with to, you know, help him, you know, to serve him, and all that. In that time he one of his jobs wasn't just, like you know, clean this or whatever, but to go out and earn a living for the family. So he was apprenticed to a hairdresser and he eventually became like one of the premier hairstylists in New York City.
Speaker 3:That's like premier hairstylist in the world.
Speaker 2:That's like hairstylist to the stars kind of guy. This is who right, I don't think they crossed paths or anything. This is who Catherine Drexel would probably get to do her hair, yeah, if she was in like that level of uh of stuff. And so so he's making quite a bit of money doing this and he's, you know, gave it to the family. Um, the master died.
Speaker 2:Of course, he's still a slave to the family, but he sees that, yes, this is an unfortunate situation, that I'm in slavery, not dignified or any of that, but in a weird way, like accepting it, that he is here to serve this family. The circumstances be as they may, that is a job put before me and, in Christ, I will accept it. So he just pours himself into. He's taking care of the widow, all this stuff, and I mean he's doing, he's earning the money for the household and then when, as she's dying, she, you know, frees him, gives him his freedom, he continues to work. So I mean that doesn't change his status as a hairdresser. So everybody's still coming to him.
Speaker 2:Still, him his freedom, he continues to work. I mean that doesn't change his status as a hairdresser. So everybody's still coming to him, still making piles of money. Now he's using the money to buy the freedom of other slaves. He's using it to, you know, fund missions and religious communities. There's a group of sisters, of black sisters, in Baltimore. He helps, you know, give them a lot of money. He helps raise and give a ton of money for St Patrick's Cathedral Not the big one that you've probably been to, oh, that other one.
Speaker 2:The old St Pat's, which back then was the brand new St Pat's Beautiful church, though. So go do it. But he, I mean, he went to daily mass at St Pat's, which back then was the brand new St Pat's Beautiful church, though. So go do it. But he, I mean he went to daily mass at St Peter's in New York, which you can still go to.
Speaker 2:But this rich faith life just made him want to use this skill that he developed to earn all this money to make a lot of good things happen. He eventually, you know, he married a lady to earn all this money to make a lot of good things happen. He, eventually, he married a lady. They never gave birth to kids, but they adopted at least one of his orphaned nieces, they helped all sorts of other orphans and charities, and all that through their work and their wealth considerable wealth. And at one point he was getting a little older. And someone wealth, considerable, considerable wealth. And at one point he was getting a little older. And someone goes hey, pierre, um, do you ever think about retiring? I mean, just enjoy the money you've made, man.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Look at all you've done so far and look at kick your feet up, man, relax, I'll be cutting all that hair. And he said to them. He said, and he said to them. He said I could retire, I have enough money for me, but if I'm not working I won't have enough for all the others. So he saw his ability to work right, that that that god-given like dignity of work, the ability to see the fruits of his labor not merely for himself but for others. And so, again, he not called to a vow of poverty, not a priest, not a religious total layman. He is the only lay person buried in St Patrick's in New York, the big St Patrick's, the one that you know about.
Speaker 3:He's under the altar there. The only one Smack dab in the middle With cardinals.
Speaker 2:All the cardinals, everybody With Fulton Sheen.
Speaker 3:He was doing their hair. He's doing their hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he's the only layperson in the cathedral I've got goosebumps.
Speaker 3:He had a huge impact. I've got goosebumps.
Speaker 2:He had a huge, I've got goosebumps thinking about this.
Speaker 3:I mean he was. He had this tremendous outsized impact in New York.
Speaker 2:City and he's. I saw this. There's a video the Archdiocese have about this but somebody's like leading a tour about him or something and he could have been on the side, right, it looks like they're kind of filling in like this in the slots. He's in the very middle, like the last slot, the bottom slot in the middle, and if you're upstairs, this is the crypt underneath the altar. If you're up there and you're peeking down the stairs, he's the only name you can see. He's the one that you can see from up top. That's crazy, he's awesome Prime parking.
Speaker 2:Yes, he's got the deluxe parking pass.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's amazing. He's a quite a story.
Speaker 2:So again, so not this huge inheritance he started with nothing. Negative when he was working his money was taken. Yes, craziness yeah like starting from beyond nothing. Yes, way up to the top, did it all with love and then used this incredible wealth not just to you know get himself.
Speaker 3:I'm sure he had some nice stuff I'm sure he did, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it wasn't his goal or focus exactly, was always what can I be doing to help the church, to help others to, to really steward this well?
Speaker 2:and so, yes, like he took seriously.
Speaker 3:Incredible come follow me he was very serious.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, he was covered in the dust of very few people could um, you know, I could think of, like saint Josephine Bakhita too, you know have slavery be something that was a transformative experience, in some way drawing you closer to God. I think that's very difficult, I think that would be very hard or impossible for many people. Only with God and his grace could that actually be something that could sanctify you and that virtue that that built, and that abandonment to our Lord. He just continued to grow him and sanctify him and then, when he had full possession of those resources, no one would have probably judged the guy if he did want to use most of it on himself or use it to to, to really lean into enjoying things that he wasn't able to enjoy previously. But this was a disciple and so I'm sure he he did some of those things, and in New York city, I mean, there's plenty of fun things to do. Our courtship.
Speaker 2:Do you think you ever went to a Yankees game or a Dodgers game or something?
Speaker 3:Why wouldn't he have and but but wasn't again the goal or the focus? And when money becomes again like what America oftentimes will teach people directly or indirectly money is the end goal, it's the end-all be-all, it's the purpose of work, it tends to be the only thing.
Speaker 2:All these people were putting you down. I mean quite literally, they're slave work, it's that. It it's tends to be the only thing people were putting you down. They, you know you were. I mean quite literally, you, they're slave. And then like, now it's your time to get yours. Oh, yeah, to them and the echoes of our culture.
Speaker 3:you can just tell that through his life he said, no, I, I I'm come, follow me. I serve somebody who's been speaking a message for for centuries, calling his, his people to follow him in these contradictory ways that the world can't understand, frankly, but that bring you peace, that bring you joy, that transform you and the world around you. And I would love to learn more just about the tangible fruits and the effects of venerable Pierre Toussaint on New York City and then how that's trickled out into the United States and the world beyond him. And I'm sure as his process goes on and continues, god willing, in our lifetime we'll get to unpack more of that story and see him canonized a saint.
Speaker 3:But what a beautiful example of a layman who put money in its right place and was not. He was serving God, not mammon, and he was putting mammon at the service of our Lord. That can be the tricky spot for the laity because it's easy to get tangled up in suddenly, all of a sudden you're just everything you're doing is just to get the next paycheck or to get the next raise, without really sometimes realizing it, and really the eyes need to be on our Lord and all of these things are at the service of him and his kingdom, and whatever vocation he's calling us to taking care of those under our charge and then transforming and being generous with our community.
Speaker 2:Absolutely it's. It can be so tricky because and then maybe you realize, oh, I've slipped into this thinking or whatever. And then maybe the first reaction, I'm going to give it all up, I'm going to go take a vow of poverty, I'm going to go to religious life or whatever. It's really tricky, but it's what's asked of, I think, the vast majority of us uh, to have the money and to use it well.
Speaker 3:I have talked with some religious sisters before and maybe not all of them feel this way, uh, or priests, um you know, or or brothers, but some some of them have told me that they think it takes more virtue to become a saint in laity than it does in religious life or the priesthood, and part of me was like, oh, I feel better now Because, yeah, I mean, I discerned religious life very heavily. We don't need to get into that story right now. But, yeah, I viewed it as I'm going to get on this conveyor belt. The narrow way is built out. I just got to stay on the belt and the lady you got to create and build the belt.
Speaker 2:I'm going to pray all these times a day. Oh, I come to Mass when the bell rings. I'm doing this work, I don't have these distractions.
Speaker 3:And there are constant distractions or the track gets ripped out or you got to start over nonstop. It's so much harder to remain faithful to the end. But the grace, and you can see it in Venerable Pierre Toussaint's life. Those virtues were so developed and he's got a spot in St Pat's Cathedral because of it. I mean, they saw and recognized that. And now here is a man, the only man in, with all of these other priests and religious in that place, sacred place.
Speaker 2:All right, let's go to the last one for today, St Matthew. We talked about him a little bit at the top. Let's bring it back home the tax collector, the traitor. If you're not familiar with how bad this is, I mean if you look at whenever everybody's grumbling about Jesus and who he's hanging out with Tax collectors and sinners there's the sinners. Not just the sinners, right, the adulterers, every everybody else.
Speaker 2:They're all lumped into, thrown into sinners but these other guys are so bad that doesn't even begin to describe them, so we're going to name them individual. The tax collectors. Can you believe guys? Special breed of terrible? Yes, because they were the traitors. They were the jews working hand in hand with the roman government to levy incredibly heavy taxes on the jews so not only was it heavy from the not side, not only was that bad enough.
Speaker 2:the way they get paid is they. If it says, oh, this guy's going to owe 10, whatevers in taxes, he goes, you know what? I think you owe 12. And then he keeps those two. He's just going to add his bit to the top and now you pay it up and they could add what they wanted. So it wasn't like, oh know, I've been working a lot, maybe I should. I mean, it's gonna be at a half nope, like free reign, because what he says you pay is what you pay. So a lot of tax collectors, right, they live this extortion well, of course, and this is like a, in some ways, a selling point of the job, because, think about it, the Romans come to you like, hey, everybody, your family, your friends, all of your own people, are going to hate you. You want to come work for peanuts?
Speaker 3:No, Do you want a ceiling-less income?
Speaker 2:Because that's what's waiting for you here. So there's so many layers here and if you see it's like well yeah, maybe there's some level of like protection or whatever from the romans, but the main driving force here is the money ton of money that's why you become a tax collector and maybe you don't.
Speaker 3:Maybe it appealed to people that didn't always have the best relationship with family or friends anyway, and so, yeah, it just was a job that was very disrespected, very looked down upon. If any of you have watched the Chosen, it just does a really good job showing this role and just how frustrated faithful Jews would be towards someone who was a tax collector and the challenges maybe that the early disciples probably had being lumped in with a guy like Matthew the gouger. Okay, matthew leaves it behind.
Speaker 2:He leaves it behind. And so, whatever image you want to see of this, again, there's that, that painting which is so good, um of jesus. He's just calling him right out. Hey, you, I, I want you to come follow me. Or if you, if you're in with the chosen uh and you want to think about those images of you know he's in with the chosen uh and you want to think about those images of you know he's in his little tax stall and he's right there and he calls him, he calls him by name. You come with me and we, I think we get a, we give a lot of.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm getting on by my, like matthew's so great box right now. Hop on, I've never really thought of this before, but we think a lot about James and John. They're out fishing, come follow me, they leave everything and follow him. They leave the other fishermen, they leave maybe their dad, they leave the fish, they leave everything. They drop it and come after him. But matthew does the same thing and he's not dropping some stinky fish and a you know worn out nets and a mediocre income, exactly. He's dropping it all like this is what I think is so really incredible. I've never. I've just thinking, maybe now about you know the imagery and everything in the Chosen. They do a great job with this because he's there working. Jesus calls him. He's like huh, okay, okay, you know, the Roman guy, guard him. He's like what, what do you do? Where are you going? The other, the apostles, like this guy.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Him, you know, and he just does it, and he leaves him and he follows him. That's what he was called to do. This former way, this corrupted, incorrect way of understanding this part of the world, this part of creation of money, this way of relating with other people, this way of relating with other people. I'm calling you out of it into a new way to understand this thing money, this way of relating to people. It's all going to be centered on me. Let's go do it.
Speaker 3:And I think that might be part of the church's wisdom in having St Matthew be one of the patrons of personal finances. Not because he had a lot, I don't think that's it. I think it's because he was a guy enticed by the views and the attitudes of the world, the influences at large in his culture, and he fell into the lies and the traps that were set before him around money. You know Satan's constantly doing this. Satanaceous of Loyola tells us that money and power are the most common nets that the devil will set for us to try to snare us up and snag us up in. Okay, he was in them, left them and then had a different relationship with money and followed our Lord in that. I think that's why he's a patron saint of finances, just because of that example, embracing new attitudes and new ideas and new mindsets around it, and I think he's relevant for today. I mean these prevailing attitudes.
Speaker 3:All you got to do is log on to TikTok or Instagram, youtube. I don't know, maybe my algorithm is just a little bit rigged, but it seems like every other video is just somebody being like. I worked for 45 minutes and I made $4 million, and now I'm on a beach, don't you want to be me? Pay $19.97. Million dollars and now I'm on a beach, don't you want?
Speaker 2:to be me pay 1997 anyway, it's just.
Speaker 3:It's tiring, but people are still attracted to the idea of just can I just have a lot of money and maybe I can get it through slightly immoral or cloudy ethical means.
Speaker 2:Or really just could I get it through as little work as possible?
Speaker 3:Yes, that too.
Speaker 2:Without the other side of the equation? Can I circumvent? Can I find the shortcut? Because I want to avoid work, please?
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, and there's nothing wrong. A phrase that abounds in today is passive income and working, yeah, again, the smallest amount so that you can, but you can still earn the most that can be acceptable for a disciple, as long as you're using all of that saved time to kingdom, build and to invest in the growth, your growth and the growth of others and be at service Truly. That that's the way that a disciple would handle that scenario. Anyway, don't want to get too far off here, but ask for St Matthew's intercession around money, and particularly that the lies that prevail in our culture today, that we're all prone to being influenced by that they would just be made known, be clear, that our Lord would point them out in our life, if we have anything that is pulling on our heart or on our wallet that is not of our Lord. That St Matthew would pray for us that we would come, follow our Lord, reject those things, set them down and begin doing something new centered on Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Yes, it doesn't matter what you've believed about money, it doesn't matter what kind of troubles you've gotten into in the past Lots of frivolous spending or mindless spending, loading up on debt, cheating people out of stuff stealing, it doesn't matter. On debt, cheating people out of stuff stealing, it doesn't matter. Jesus still wants you and he still wants you to understand and use money in a better, sanctified way. So, yeah, pray to St Matthew, pray for the intercession of Venerable Pierre and St Catherine and St Anthony of Padua, and all Francis of Assisi, st Zalian, louis Martin.
Speaker 2:Yes, they all have these incredible interactions with money that we can learn from Whatever saint you know and love whoever's you know, tapping you on the shoulder all the time. Look into their life and see how do they use money and what type of a lesson, what type of inspiration can I find in their life for the way God might be calling me to use mine? Amen, hallelujah. Thank you for joining us on this special episode of the Catholic Money Show, the Seek podcast. Thank you so much. We're a little bummed. We won't see you at Seek 25, but we would love to see you on social media. At WalletWin you can find us. Come on over to walletwincom and anywhere you listen to podcasts, even on YouTube, just search the Catholic Money Show and you'll find us. We'd love to have you as our next and newest subscriber. Thank you very much for joining us. God bless you and until next time. Bye for now.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us for this episode. We hope you learned something and encountered Christ in some way. If you enjoy what we do, please subscribe and share this podcast with a friend. This helps us reach more people with and for Christ. Until next time, this is John Michael Peace.
